Terrible Advice Tuesdays (T.A.Tues): Your Sump Sucks
Terrible Advice Tuesdays: Sumps are outdated technology. A canister filter is a far superior method of filtration over a sump.
The rest of the story: Some things make me want to vomit and terrible advice like this definitely makes my stomach turn.
Let’s look at some basic facts first:
- A canister filter can act as a mechanical, biological or chemical filter depending on what type of media you put in it.
- A sump can also act as a mechanical, biological or chemical filter.
At this point it appears that a sump is just as good as a canister filter. Looks can be deceiving though and digger deeper, here’s where a sump starts to pull ahead:
A sump adds water volume to your system and everyone knows a larger system is more stable than a smaller one. While it is true that a canister filter does add some water volume to your system, it won’t add near the volume that a sump will. Advantage: Sump
A sump can also house a protein skimmer to remove waste from you tank. You can’t add a skimmer to a canister filter no matter how hard you try. Advantage: Sump
Here’s a big reason I prefer sumps: with a sump, you’ll see detritus building up, which is a sign you need to do a water change. And when you do that water change, you can easily suck out the detritus. Less detritus means less nutrient sources which will help keep things like algae out of your tank.
Does a canister filter also collect detritus? Absolutely! But you won’t see that detritus and if something is out of sight, it’s likely out of mind. Unless you clean that canister filter frequently – as in weekly – then it will collect detritus and cause issues. Advantage: Sump
Bottom line: Keep the sump and sell the canister filter to some freshwater person. Oh, buy some frags with the money you made!
P.S. I’m sure there are stories of people keeping saltwater tanks successfully with a canister filter. However, there are way more successful saltwater tanks run off sumps than canister filters. My recommendation is to run sumps and NOT canister filters.
Browse the Store! Questions?
Amen Mark, not having a sump is one of the “Rookie” mistakes. Having a basement to house the sump and tank extras is a plus. Nobody touches my “Marine Man Cave”……..
There are also benefits to a Canister (I run a refugium as main filtration). You can run different media for a short time, water polishing. A canister can be great tool to have sitting around when a little extra filtration is needed.
I do see you points, and thanks for being fair at the end.
Is there a site to discover more about sumps, setting up, and what about doing a water change with a sump.
So many questions.
Thanks Mark.
I don’t have room for a sump n all the lovely things y’all post. I have to stick with my canister for a while longer.
I agree with all of you. But, I am like ruth, I don’t have the room for all the fancy equipment you have. I am running a canister filter, hang on filter and a protien simmer on my 40 gal dt with no problems. but I do clean my filters weekly. One day I will be the guy, that I have read about with the 1000 gal. tank in my man cave…lol
Canister filters are no better for freshwater than they are for saltwater. There is no reason fresh water fish can’t live as well as their saltwater cousins. Power to the fish. 🙂
A better product line would be pressuized bag filters. They use the same infrastructure without all the biofilter, charcoal, etc. and would be used in addition to the sump. This makes it possible to use much smaller micron bags to “shine” the water. They are susceptible to the same owner negligence of not cleaning however.
Mike S…you’ve hit the nail on the head for how to keep a canister filter successfully – clean it every single week without fail.
Steve…you’re at the right site for the information you’re looking for as I discuss sumps, setting them up, plumbing them, etc in my No-Nonsense Guide to Setting Up A Saltwater Tank Vol 1
Brian…my first saltwater tank had a canister filter for mainly that reason. I’d run it for an hour or two once a week strictly to polish the water! Oh the days of early saltwater tank keeping!
Mark H…”marine man cave” HA! That’s funny
It’s very easy to change media with a sump as well. In fact, it’s A LOT easier. I ran a sump on my first tank and the last thing I wanted to do was change medias. T was a pain. I upgraded to a sump with my next tank and got a carbon/gfo reactor from bulk reef supply. It makes running carbon and/or granulated ferric oxide (gfo) super easy. I can run the medias separately or together in the same reactor depending on my tank’s needs at the time. I know a sump sounds like fancy equipment to those of you running hang-on everything off the back of your tank. I know, I used to do the same. But once you make the move you realize it is a critical, basic component. A successful tank can be run without one but a sump opens up a whole new world of flexibility and functionality that you just can’t find with other options.
Caution, the more things change— the more they remain the same. An ehiem is a clever kit! I have been in and out of marines many times over 40 years. I sold my old 600 gallon, all my 90s and replaced them each time- never regretted it. I’ve sold all my bleached coral and rebought live rock– no regrets. I sold all my first generation FFs and pumps and power heads- no regrets. BUT I never, ever sell my ehiems! they are way way too useful and long lived.
The conversation about nitrAtes and closed canisters is on one had valid and on another-silly. The true advantage of sumps beyond ‘room to hide things’ is its volume ( unstockable water) and excellent gas exchange. Beyond that, a closed canaster is the same as a sump. the trick is to not allow organics to accumulate in a space that has limited oxygen. But for anyone worried about ehiems, come to my home and see the species that live in the base of the canaster- shrimp, copapods, tube worms, worms, tiny stars. A first ‘generation’ refugium. If it were awful environment, these species would thrive ( not just exist) in there. Food for thought. JasPR
My sump has a section that is being used as a refugium which couldn’t be done with a canister filter. I do have a canister filter. It is in my shop collecting dust.
The question is not CAN you keep a reef tank on canister filters. The question is should anybody especially starters do it.
I’ve seen people who wish to start with ceramic pipes, canister filters etc. I’ve also seen great sps reef aquaria running on (dutch) tap water. Also running without any water changes.
When you are an expirienced reefer you migth and i say might want to try this. For anybody else without at least 10 years of xp they should start with a sump. A big skimmer, and a phosphate reactor. Keep this basic running. No carbon, no strange things no vodka etc. Just start basic, and go further from there.
Mark, hopefully I’m not the only one that has this problem but when your sump starts to collect a lot of detritus, is it best to do water changes through your sump or through your display tank? I’ve never done a water change through my sump but I would like to be able to keep it clean.
Thanks
Devin
Agreeing with Dan and James–the best part about the sump is that you can hide your carbon and/or GFO reactors, your heater, your probes (if you probe for pH, salinity, etc.), your ATO, and (as Mark said above) your skimmer. I think this is even more important for guys with small tanks–first, you get that extra volume with all of its benefits, but more importantly, your two or three cubic feet of beauty in the display tank won’t be trumped by a small army of HOB stuff and cords hanging over the edge.
Devin…I pull water from my sump when doing water changes mainly for the purpose of sucking up detritus
I got most of the discussion and agree.. the only thing i missed was the visual build up of detritus which lets you know you need a water change.
i know about the protein skimmer build up in the cup but thats it
When I started my 55 gallon slatwater tank I had hang over the back fillters. That’s how I started, the I investid in a wet dry trickle fillter with BIO balls. And a coralife skimmer. But I did more reasurch and learns the a Refugium is the way to go. So I made my own and spent the money or a better skimmer Reef octopus nb110. And I will say the from the WDTF at 4.5 gallons of water to Refugium at 13.5 gallons, my tank has done much better like mark said I can see and take acctions need to keep up with the need of my live stock water and more. I thank mark for all the videos my local pet store they are fish only type little hole in the wall store.
Sorry for all the type’O’s
The device is not as nearly the issue as the maintenance of the device. If you regularly clean and maintain the canister it will work for you. I’m spoiled by my sump, but lets remember in the 80s canisters were a break through before the sump system came along and many saltwater tanks were kept. No matter what you use decipline is the key
The 80’s called. It wants its canister back… 🙂
Now I have a 75 gallon tank with DIY Refugium and reef octopus skimmer Hydor wave controller with two Evolution power heads. Four T5 coralife light system 2/ 10K and 2Atinics plus blue LEDs. 2 heaters, dual reactor GFO and Carbon. 1 rose bubble tip 1 hammer Coral, 15 hermit crabs, plus all my fish. I’ll get all the name later.
One thing I forgot to mention in my original post, after I got sick of dealing with my canister on my first tank, I ditched it for a HOB CPR Aquafuge II. I highly recommend going this route for those of you who don’t have the space, $$, spousal approval, whatever for a sump. Depending on how you set it up, it can give you additional biological filtration, a refugium to grow pods for your tank, a space to grow macro algae to help with phosphates, etc and it’s really cool to watch the “things” grow in there. It’s a nice intermediate step towards a sump system.
Ok 1 Star Blenny, 1 Coral Beauty angel, 2 Green chormis, 1 Kaudern’s Cardinal, and last but not least is 2 Clown’s / Nemo lol.
Dan…HA! That’s when I got my first (and only) canister filter!
Very true Matintenance is the key one must keep up with what ever set up you have. Husbandry very important. Sumps and Refugiums are the way to go but if something els work for you hey so be it. You know your set up and what it needs.
I have a canister filter … makes a great wedge for the door…
How do you get a siphon started from the sump? Or do you use a pump?
Canister filter well I can see it as a back up plan if some thing goes worng with ones sump or Refugium. Like a crack or leaks of some kind.
if you clean out a canister filter weekly , dont you distroy all the good bacteria in it ?
Steve…very likely and the amount of bacteria in the canister filter vs. what is in your tank is very small. Therefore cleaning the canister filter should not be a problem assuming your tank is setup correctly
Sump all the way..
Who would really say or even think it that a sump is out-dated technology? wow that person needs to do there homework…
Thanks Mark , by the way how do i contact you by email to ask a couple of questions , im not on twitter , nor do i want to be , and it seems like thats the only way to get in touch with you
Steve
Steve..use the contact form on my site
This was an interesting series of responses. And I only defend the closed biofilter to make a point– there is no one way to keep the many species of ocean creatures we keep. There are better ways, more convenient ways and even ways that case breeding and flourishing as opposed to survival. Indeed many provide ‘water quality’ far beyond the needs or ability to detect of the species they keep!
While diving in the Pacific was was struck by the dirty water in the bays I found manderin in for instance. I have photos taken off the mangroves in the keys with baby french angels living in empty soup cans on the ocean bottom. 🙂
Mulm is definitely a killer of oxygen levels, pH levels and ORP. but mulm is the downside of closed systems in general. And the bacteria count associated with mineralization is impossible to avoid in a closed system. the very best we can do is keep it as ‘white noise’ or a back ground event.
Live rock, of course sheds a remarkable amount of mulm which we tend not to notice in the first year of a set up.
I like to think of my water as having ‘ambient’ measurements or parameters. And the name of the game is to keep the needle as close to the ideal as possible. And of all the equipment sold to the thiry something new marine keeper, the best is still the water change! small and frequent wins the race to keep the needle from moving off the ideal.
If you run a canister, know its negative contribution to the closed system and maintain it and compensate with water changes inbetween canister servicing.
in the inverse, do not think you are mineralization free if you use a sump or refrugium– they can produce undesirable short lived algae, yet another negative of lighting a biozone used for nitrification.
Its a wonderful hobby. trouble is the internet has made it more confusing to the beginner instead of less confusing. Believe an old salt– there is not just one true way. Basic scientific principles leading to understanding yes, specific brand gadgets used- no. And the commercial side loves and proliferates in the confusion. And the beat goes on. JasPR
All is not lost for those canister filters. I will let you know how I use mine. Well I use my old canister filters to clean detritus matter from the sump and my tank. Got hair, bubble, slime, or macro algae problems? I had an extra turbo twist and decided to hook it up to the out going flow of my canister and back into the tank as I sucked all the algae up in the past as well as when I would do service for buddies of mine. The UV kept those spores that passed the canister from spreading and of course the reduced flow rate going in the turbo twist maximized exposure to the water. I say keep them handy and don’t toss them out. My favorite is the magnum 350 because it is clear and you can see through it. I personally would never recommend a canister as the main filtration but for cleaning out a tank it is perfect. Even water polishing as well.
I went into my local store to buy a frag from the sale they were having. While waiting for the sales person I heard the sales pitch to a couple just starting their first saltwater tank and I almost fell over when I heard the sales person tell them to get 2 canister filters and do not use a sump. WELL I had to get in on this and I convinced them to buy my old sump, tank, and all the toys that went with it and then took THAT money and bought more frags.
Now that’s sharing the Reefing love … well done to you … bonus on the frags 😀
one indicator that your ehiem ‘might’ be becoming a nitrAte factory is by the speed and amount of algae/diatoms you see forming on your front glass. And well maintained system should go three or four days without a film appearing in the glass. If you are in a 24-48 hour cycle, and you are blaming your lights, look to your general rate of eutrophication. The beat down of detritius involves a lot of ammonia production and oxygen consumption. That’s the reason that the advanced hobbyist wants to get rid of anything that encourages mineralization and overly active nitrification. JasPR
I run both on my 220 gal fowler set up. The extra mechanical filtration provided by my Fluval FX-5 is a blessing. I always believe more is better. A large wet-dry with a over-sized protein skimmer keep my water perameters pristine at all times.
HI everybody !Cannister filters were all the rage when I had my first marine tank….36 years ago ! god I feel old,anyway that was then and this is now and a sump IS the go I believe, hey by the way back then you could hire the latest technoligy..an ozone machine to run on your tank as they were so costly that no one could afford to own there own ozonizer,I couldn’t even afford to hire it ,how reef keeping has changed !
I run i reef with canister, all is ok becouse i really want it for mechanical filtration and too litte biological becouse i have two reactors hang- on with Phoshate and carbon and a very good skimmer hang -on!!
a sump is better then a canister no doubt at all but i think that a sump and a small canister will benifit you more , the canister and sump both have a return helping you circulate your tank better and dont forget that may mean 1 less powerhead
BINGO! canisters ( depending on the tank size) can be a nice and cheaper way ( both initial cost and power consumption) when it is used to remove one powerhead) In essences, one motor performing two functions.
I’m certainly NOT anti-sump as I use two on my four systems ( a 180 and a 120 g) and in the past I had a 1800 gallon sump on my 630- gallon system.
But I am pushing back on the conventional ‘wisdom’ of the day which describes canisters as ‘ancient technology’ and sumps as the only one true way. Its just a sign of the times, as IF maintained well and used on the right kind of system, canisters can actually be considered wiser choices than a sump.
Here’s an advanced concept that most of already know, but for the newbies in our hobby—
Your canister is nothing more than an ‘echo’ of the conditions within your closed system. It is NOT the producer of any problem, but it can be considered a ‘bottle neck’ in the general output of your overall system. The general out put being- your stocking levels, lighting conditions, feeding routine and most importantly– how you use your water changes to bring the ‘set point’ back again. The set point is your ideal water parameters.
So canisters get a bad rap when the above is not understood well.
A sump is wonderful to two reasons– more water to aid in reducing the deterioration time interval between water changes and 2) a good area of general gas exchange and the off loading of intermediate species of nitrogenous waste byporducts. JasPR
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet in favor of the sump is the water line!!! Back in the day my fresh water tanks, with no sump, there was that nasty ever changing water mark at the top of the tank. Now with my reef tank the sump takes up the change in water levels between full and add water. The level in the tank stays just into the top trim and you don’t see the water line!!! makes for a much more pleasant view now that I’m at 280 gals.
yes, but as an owner of a 120 gallon, a 180 gallon, a 72 bow and a new 500 ( 689 with sump) gallon ‘show’ tank, Water level is maddening! Especially in winter when the evaporation rate is not to be believed. Get an audo refill going you might say– but to refill a 2% evaporation rate takes about 30 gallons a day of RO/DI water. Its getting hard to keep up with. Any suggests or maintenance routines would be of interest to me ( and maybe to Ralph? ) JasPR
I’d also be interested in a comment Mr Saltwater made on a Utube video about ( didn’t mention the word ‘dwell time but it was what he was driving at) how fast or show water should run thru the sump/refugium. This , I think is a whole science in and of itself. The trade off of circulation in order to drive the ambient nitrogen waste leves to as low as the system is capable of , AND, just how rapidly a refugium can handle. But I digress—- As old salts tend to do LOLs JasPR
JasPR, I like my Reef-filler ATO pump that you can feed to your system from a remote location in any direction up to 200ft away( up to 100PSI if you so desired). Mine can be adjusted 1-7 gallons per day. They just so happen to have one that is adjustable 3-30 gallons per day (: They also make a dual pump model that you can use to perform automatic water changes, say 1% daily for a 30% monthly swap if you so desire and they are very affordable. I’ve had mine for two years now dosing my ATO and I enjoy how well it works. I only have to refill my top off container every 3 weeks; it’s great! I’d want to find a way to reduce that chore as well!! Take care.
Brian