Terrible Advice Tuesdays (T.A.Tues): Your Fish Is Glancing? That Means It Has Ich
Terrible Advice Tuesdays: When a fish glances (scratches itself against rock/gravel), that means it has ich.
The rest of the story: I hear this one a lot so let’s break it down:
1) A fish that glances could have a disease, and it could not. Fish glance for several reasons including rubbing off dead scales/skin. Just because a fish is glancing that is not a 100% positive diagnosis for a disease as discussed in my No-Nonsense Quarantine guide.
2) A fish that has marine velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) or Brooklynella (Brooklynella hostilis) is just as likely to glance as a fish with ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Therefore, if you see a fish glancing, ich should be one of the diseases that you watch for, but don’t exclude other diseases as well. Also, if the fish has Brooklynella and you treat it for ich, the fish would get the wrong treatment entirely.
If you see a fish glancing in your tank, make note of it and keep a closer eye on the fish. However, don’t freak out and immediately assume it is sick and quarantine it unless you see a disease present.
Browse the Store! Questions?
Nice info. Thanks!
I just had a juvenile Hippo Tang in my tank (that’s been there a year) start glancing. It did it for about a day or two and then stopped and appears to be fine since…. this was two weeks ago. This is great advice. I almost pulled that fish from my tank and caused it stress for no reason.
~T
Mark,
How would you identify Gill flukes? Fish will glance off rocks and sand due to the irritant in their gills. As far as I know they will never be visible. Do you have a good remedy for gill flukes? Most of the remedies sold in the LFS are ineffective against gill flukes even though they claim to work.
Thanks Mark.. I learned something new.. I’ve never seen this but now if I do, I’ll know what to do.
Cheers.. 🙂
Tough situation…ich (Cryptocaryon irritans has a 100% kill rate if untreated, almost like ebola) in a reef tank. Again, you have to catch the fish and quarantine. Maybe try some UV instead?
Good luck!
Can sps, lps, mushrooms get ich too????
So right, Mark! Spot on! ‘Flashing’ is a symptom– but of what? Like a runny nose in Humans, it can be a symptom of many things. I guess the thing to do is to examine the act of Flashing. Flashing is a symptom of general irritation– it can be irritation in the moment- such as a bit of sand hitting the gill membrane while the fish was browsing or it could mean an ecto-parasite is digging in/lodging on a gill filament. But without a slime sample under a scope- how can one know, I mean really know. It will require more behavioral observation and community dynamics over time.
The real point here is to NOT over react and in doing so, add chemicals to an established system and causing the general environment to be harmed in the process. In effect, burning down the house to get rid of a ‘possible’ house fly!
Q-tanks are not a luxury– they are really mandatory for long term success. Its always the ‘last fish’ you add to a building collection that brings the whole tank down. And if its a mixed invert/fish tank, GAME OVER! JasPR
This is very true that last fish cost me 1,000 bucks and now I have a tank starting over
In reply to Roger. Ich does not have a 100% kill rate. Not saying it’s the correct approach at all, but I don’t quarantine. I know for a fact ich is in my system, but no one shows symptoms because they are kept strong and healthy. I had 1 outbreak ages ago, and all the fish recovered on their own without treatment. That being said, if you have the space and resources, you should absolutely quarantine.
I’m fine. Thanks. (scratching self on door frame) LOL.
This is definitely something that, when I first began my 75, I was concerned about. I have a hippo tang that has gotten ich quite easily in the past and a couple times caught a fungal breakout. He was glancing on rocks quite a bit so I was able to get that treated.
But at the same time, I have a starry blenny that glances on sand mostly, but also rocks constantly. It seems to be just part of his normal activity because he’s been around for months with no issues. I look over my fish daily and some of them do it almost daily, but I’ll go with the scratching an itch or rubbing dead scales off.
Just gotta ask, where do you get the 100% kill rate statistic from Roger? And what do you consider “treatment” in that case? I do a simple garlic additive to a once a day feeding all the time, but that alone has been identified to help a fish get thru sickness. I’ve also had my fish get a minute ich infection and then once it goes into the next cycles, they don’t get it again. They can build up a natural immunity to ich without you doing anything. Granted, I’ve had a couple fish I had to treat because they were coated in it, but after that, they didn’t get it again. Just a curious statement to read I suppose.
Thanks again Mark,
When I first started I had a tang that was glancing, I did pull it from the population and start treating it. It ended with very bad results. I lost my fish, I did note that the fish was getting worse with my treatment, If I had left it alone and just watched it, It may have survived. Since then I don’t overreact and I watch it closely, And I have found just what Mark said is true, I haven’t lost a fish to disease or just glancing since. Most of the time they just do it for a day and that is it.
Thanks Mark.
Always keep a good eye on your fish (as I’m sure we do,thats why we have ’em) as I just had two fish with velvet and niether of them were glancing of rocks or sand,two treatments over 6 days on advice from my LFS and the fish seem to be ok so far (still keeping a close eye on them though)
Great advice! Don’t freak out… Especially when new to the hobby, its easy to get hyper vigilant. I have lost more fish by “treating” my tank with medications than by waiting hands down. My Chocolate tang glances every few weeks and it’s as healthy as any fish ever. Nothing like a good back scratch!
Has anyone tried dipping the infected fish into a container of tap water at the reef temp. and buffered to the same ph, for 30 seconds? I tried this on a yellow tank and the ich spots just fell off. Instantly cured the ick infection. I think the specific graviety change (to 1.0) explodes the parasites and the clorine in tap water sterilizes the fish too. Interestingly the 30 second trist didn’t hurt the fish.
you must remember that Ich is not a infection in the normal sense of the word.ALL FISH have the Ich virus on them at all times , even the healthy ones in your tank right now , the same as humans all carry the virus that causes cold sores on the lips and mouth, and when we get stressed , run down or exposed to a lot of strong sunshine , the virus overcomes our immune system and breaks out.
So it is with fish , when you transport them or even move them to another tank in your own house you severely stress them and the Ich virus overcomes their defences and breaks out on their skin.
As has been said garlic boosts their immune system and there are two or three products that can be used with corals that act as a sedative on the fish in the tank , calming them and letting their immune system become strong again so nothing has to be removed from your tank which causes more stress
Roger…what you are describing is a freshwater dip and when done correctly, it can provide temporary relief for the fish, but it isn’t a cure.
Also, the tap water needs to be dechlorinated as well as having the same temp and pH as the tank the fish is coming from. Dip length should be 5 mins.
stevieduk…a couple of things:
1) Not every fish has ich.
2) Ich is not a virus. It is a parasite. Part of ich’s life span takes place off the fish so ich doesn’t lie dormant on the fish then suddenly spring to life like a virus.
Lastly, sedating a fish isn’t a cure and there is no reef safe scientifically proven medication for ich. Only copper has been scientifically proven to cure ich and copper is absolutely not reef safe. Please don’t be fooled into thinking you can feed a fish garlic or dose a “reef safe” medication and the fish will be cured.
Could another reason be that maybe they are trying to get food off the rock??
I think when they try to get food off a rock…they nibble :>)
Not sure I got an answer but do hard and soft corals get ich?
Do clams get ich?
I tried garlic once (It didn’t work) but had to discontinue it because my bikini wife said my reef smelled like an Italian restaurant…
Coral and inverts in general don’t get ich. Ich is not always in the fish. It can be eliminated. It’s a parasite, it’s not magic. Also, not all people have the cold sore virus (herpes simplex) either.
Roger…corals and inverts don’t get ich in the sense that corals/clams/inverts don’t get infected by ich during the trophonts phase. However, there is a chance (very slight chance) that an ich tomont could attach to the skeleton of a clam or coral. This is a very slight chance though as it is much more likely that the tomont will attach to the rockwork or the sand in your tank. It’s a game of odds – there is MUCH more rock and sand surface area than coral/clam/invert surface area
What’s a tomont?
Roger…it’s one of the stages of ich’s life cycle
Once you kiss someone with a cold sore you are given the herpes gift for life! Same goes for genital herpes, but that involves more than just a kiss.
I always say that the main thing is not to panic. Thanks for the affirmation 😉
Too funny… while the reefers out there most likely don’t also have a fowlr tank as we do, they’d be shocked to watch a humuhumu as they characteristically glance off of everything and anything including the bottom of the tank. Can you imagine the stress an uniformed person would have with one of these in their tank.
It is also true that fish mark there territory our show dominance by doing this say action. Doesn’t always mean ich or another disease. I agree you just have to watch the fish.
mark , I have had Ich 3 times in my main tank , that also has corals in, each time it has appeared because of something dramatic happening to the tank , not new arrivals, and each time I have treated it with Herbtana which alwys works on Ich , contains no copper , ans IS coral safe. Yes Ich is a parasite but it behaves like a virus and can lie dormant on a fish until it has an opportunity to emerge
Stevieduk, Your ich likely just went away on its own. I believe this is how all the reef safe ich cures get their success stories. More often than not, if you have healthy fish, and a stable tank, the ich will go away on its own. If you are dosing a snake oil reef safe ich medicine, you would probably attribute the ich’s regression to the medicine.
Stevieduk…herbtana is NOT a documented ich treatment. It’s a herbal treatment that might (emphasis on might) help the fish fight off ich, but it won’t eradicate the disease. What is happening in your tank is that the ich is going through its natural life cycle and your fish don’t show signs until they get stressed. When they get stressed, then a full blown ich outbreak occurs. When the fish becomes unstressed, the ich is fought off by the fish to a level that you can’t see, but the ich is still there. The herbtana helped your fish manage ich, but it did not cure them of the disease.
Also, there is documented cases of fish that are ich resistant, yet they carry ich and show no signs of the disease. Again, just because you can’t see the ich, that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Finally, ich has a well documented biological lifecycle that includes a 3-28 day “dormant” stage when it is encysted and reproducing. Ich can’t stay in this stage definitely as it’s a parasite and must hatch and find a host or else it dies.
But no new fish were added to the tank , nothing new came into the tank.All the fish in the tank had been in there for at least 12 months. the heaters failed , temp went right low , stressed fish , Ich appeared , so were did it come from. There is a consensus of opinion over here (England) that Ich does lie dormant on a fish for a long time
stevieduk…the ich was in your tank all along. What was happening was that ich was running through its normal life cycle all the time and it didn’t show up on the fish’s body where you could see it. When the fish got stressed, the fish’s immune system was compromised, so ich showed up in a greater degree so then you could see it. What you experienced is very similar to the documented cases of ich resistant fish that still carry the disease. The fish carry the disease, but show no signs of being affected. The ich is there, but just out of sight.
ok well, I still like Herbtana , smells nice to . I am making a four foot square tank very soon so expect I will get another outbreak when I change everything over into that tank
Hi Mark, can you tell me why a hippo tang I had some time ago when showing ich (visible on sides & head as well as constant glancing) when treated with fresh water dips for 5 mins twice a day for more than a week while in quarantine didn’t heal at all. I could some cysts had burst but not many. Then the local LFS guy told me to try hyper-salinity, so I got some display tank water & bumped its salinity up to 1.035 having started the dips at 1.028 I increased over time to this higher number & dipping the fish over 2-3 days, 2 daily the cysts all burst. Fish cured why?
Interesting parallel: “Stress fish, results in immune compromise, results in ich”.
Humans are the same: when they are under stress their immune system is compromised and it results in things like gastric ulcers, hypertention, heart disease and cancer. So try to lead a stress free life. Don’t let others drag you down or bother you: Keep smiling!
Roger…keep in mind an immune compromised fish might only result an ich outbreak if ich is already present in the system. Just because a fish is stressed and/or immune compromised, that won’t make ich suddenly appear out of nowhere.
Good advice, Mark. Not all fish have ich and it is possible to have a tank that is ich free. I’m sorry about your recent experience with Brooklynella, what a nightmare. I’ve seen very good reviews for your quarantine guide. There is so much bad information on the net about this.
P.Bouic, are you sure your LFS said hyper-salinity (more salt) and not hypo-salinity (less salt). Hypo salinity is normally the case as it keeps the fish in an environment where the ich cannot survive due to it having no osmo-regulation (cant adjust itself to the different slainity), and the less salt means less stress on the fish as they don’t have to work so hard to expel the salt from the water. Hyper-salinity in my eyes would cause the fish having to work harder to expel salt causing more stress.
I too had an outbreak that cost the lives of 4 fish, unfortunately the stress of the freshwater dip and move to quarantine meant they perished rather quickly.
Yes Mike I definitely meant hyper-salinity, & yes I know all that you said about osmosis, its just that the hippo tang I treated over weeks in a quarantine tank did not respond to fresh water dips in the manner I expected, he was getting worse after 2dips a day in fresh over 2wks I tried the weird advice of hyper & I too was very surprised the cysts burst after 2/3 days starting at 1.028, up-to 1.032 . I’ve been involved in aquarium maintenance with my own business plus having kept fish for 15+yrs & reefs for the last 10, it had me scratching my head ? it worked, cysts were intact with fw & burst at top of hyper-salinity range dips. This fish was always getting outbreaks ( hippos as we know get it often till cured finally) always getting it with all new fish added to the tank, & never got it again after this final solution.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for all your advise!
I’ve had some problems with fish while all parameters are always fine.
My tank now start to be overcrowded by coraline algea and some kind of little critters.
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3008/photojqc.jpg
Any idea what they are?
Thanks!
Flatworms
tbrinkman…as Jase suggested, those look like red flatworms also known as plan aria. Harmless and some people consider them an eye sore
Thanks so much. Been trying to identify them for ages.
Will get them sorted as I don’t think they are very pretty..
hi mark. i have a small 2″ blue tang that just developed white spots. the other fishes in my tank (4″ emperor, 4″ mimic tang, 4″ powder brown tang, 2 clowns, and a yellow wrasse) all don’t have signs. do i treat the whole setup (display tank and sump) or just take out and quarantine and treat the little guy separately?
if i do hospitalize just the blue tang, won’t this leave parasites in my water, substrate and live rocks? i am quite confused.
by the way, i have a FOWLR setup. thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Paul…the proper procedure is to take all the fish out and quarantine and treat them all. Just because the fish aren’t showing the disease doesn’t mean they aren’t affected by it.
And, there are no proven reef safe medications. The only proven ich medication is copper which will kill any invertebrates in your tank. I know you don’t have coral, but shrimp, snails, and micro fauna such as coppepods will be killed by the medication
thanks for the quick response mark. i only have 2″ fine gravel, live rocks and the fishes that i enumerated in my tank. no inverts no copepods nor snails yet coz my 120g DT tank with 30g sump is pretty new, just 1.5 months old, still in the cycling process. even algae, i barely have, just a few clusters here and there. decided to use this livestock instead of “dead matter”.
so i guess it’s safe to medicate the whole system based on your answer… or am i wrong?
Hey Mark,
In regards to your discussion with stevieduk, if he had the same fish for 12 months and it is believed the ich was living it’s “lifecycle”, if the ich never got into the fish because they weren’t stressed for those 12 months, shouldn’t the ich have been eradicated because they didn’t have a host to infect? How can fish live with the ich for 12 months(even if you can’t see it), doesn’t the ich feed on the fish? You would at least see them flashing, rubbing on rocks, etc… So if they weren’t infected, the ich should have died within 12 months.
ICH is one of the most debated fish diseases out there, I have done a lot of research and have dealt with a lot of ICH, and I am actually now a believer of the theory that ich is always in the tank/water. We will never know for sure, everyone has had different experiences and they conflict. For instance people QT all their fish for 1-2 months with a brand new setup, and eventually ich comes about.(lack of water changes, failed heater, etc…) What explains that? In my experience, keeping the water quality as clean as possible(carbon, gfo reactor, skimmer, many water changes, dsb, macroalgae, etc…) helps fish fight off the ich(I’m talking one or two spots, not the major outbreaks) I have had fish all fight off the 1 or 2 spots without any problem and without any spreading around, because of the good housekeeping mentioned above. However, I agree that for some reason when a fish is battered with ich spots all over it’s fins/body, EVERY fish in the system dies, unless medicated in a QT tank. I only QT ALL fish if one of the fish is flooded with ich, and it seems to be fine if random fish have only a couple of spots on their bodies.(no signs of breathing fast, etc…)
Please let me know what you think Mark, I know that you know a lot about fish disease, and I respect your opinion, but I am just not convinced ICH can be 100% preventable if QT procedures are used.(that’s why even professionals get bit with ich on ich-magnet like fish like the powder blue tang, that’s why I think it’s always in the water!)
Shaun…as Steven Pro and I discuss in our quarantine guide, there is scientific evidence of fish developing immunity to ich, yet the fish never show any signs of the disease. Also keep in mind the ich could be on parts of the fish that you can’t see, namely its gills. While the fish may appear clean, the disease could be living out of sight.
Can ich always be present in a system? Certainly it is possible especially considering the number of hobbyists that never quarantine any fish, or quarantine improperly. And if your tank was started with dry rock and dry sand OR you set up your tank and left it without fish for months on end as some people advocate, this is a foundation for ich not being present. If you take this foundation, then correctly prophylactically treat all incoming fish, then according to science, ich can’t be present.
I don’t believe that ich is present in every system. Both Steven and I have kept ich-magnet fish with no signs of the disease even though stressing events have occurred such as fish aggression, temperature drops, etc. Furthermore, I’ve never experienced an ich outbreak, or even any signs of ich in any of my tanks, or my local client tanks where I have setup the tank and quarantined the fish.