Terrible Advice Tuesdays (T.A.Tues): That Tang Of Yours Is Going To Get Ich
Terrible Advice Tuesdays (T.A.Tues): You can expect a tang to get ich (cryptocaryon irritans).
The rest of the story: Expecting a fish to get a disease is the equivalent of saying, “Nothing I can do, it is going to happen anyways”, and sitting around waiting for the disease to show up. What a horrible idea.
I certainly won’t deny that tangs are more prone to ich than other types of fish. And just because a fish is prone to a disease, that doesn’t mean you should expect your fish to get a disease.
Why? There’s a couple of reasons:
- If a fish doesn’t have a disease, and isn’t exposed to a disease, then the disease can’t show up out of thin air. An ich-free tang that is kept in an ich-free system can’t suddenly come down with ich.
- Diseases, and certainly ich, can be prevented with correct quarantine procedures. Ich can be prevented and shouldn’t be expected.
Finally, if you really expect tangs to get ich, then you’d be crazy not to quarantine them and strongly consider prophylactic treating them as well. (Note: As explained in my quarantine guide, I’m not a proponent of putting a fish through a cocktail of medications in an attempt to prophylactic treat against every disease.)
Browse the Store! Questions?
I prophylactically treat all tangs with chloroquine phosphate for at least 10 days, no ich yet.
mark, can cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse help with ick?
No question! quarantine is always the best way to go! But I think its always important to understand that ‘ich’ and bacterial pathogens are almost always in water as a natural indigenous species. This is why the concept of ‘stress ich’ is both helpful to know and actually accurate in its suggestion. When we talk about ich or other ectoparasite presence we are really referencing not single presence but rather an infestation. An infestation is an environmental event as much ( more actually) than the idea of a carrier ( which ‘can exist’ but is really just the match to a fuse). What I mean is, you need certain conditions for an infestation– weak fish, stress fished suffering from G.A.S. ( general adaptation syndrome) or conditions that highly favor an explosion in the ‘ambient’ presence of a parasite. In a healthy aquarium with strong fish, parasites can actually be present ( most likely are as a matter of fact) but in such small numbers that they are considered that much ‘white back ground noise’. indeed they may also be on some micro predators list of prey.
Balance and strength of individuals are always the underlying key to a healthy system. Not meds or copper or any other chemotherapy.
The new fish is a weak fish in many cases. And G.A.S. is a normal survival reaction which says to the fish- ” shut down all systems in favor of just those that will keep you alive until the stressor condition passes”. That means that normal defenses against ectoparasites is closed down. Once the ‘meal ticket’ for the parasite is removed– Its on– on like donkey kong! They can reproduce with shocking speed as you all know. And the bacterial pathogens only need a matter of a few minutes to double in cell count. JasPR
While I agree with most of this , I disagree with the concept of an ‘ich free system’ . IMO there is no such thing, ich is present in every tank and will affect your fish if they become stressed or some other change causes their immune system to drop it’s guard. Alot of times when a fish is transferred to a different tank, the move will stress it and possibly it’s new tank mates causing their immune systems to become weaker allowing the ich to take hold. In my experiance, if you can eliminate the factor that is stressing the fish, and as long as the fish is eating well, they should be Able to regain their strength and fight off the disease on their own without any meds.
Again, this is my opinion and it’s based off my experiance with my fish.
If only shrimps cleaned ich! I haven’t heard a single case where that successfully happened.
Right on Poseidon! Of course, Q tank is best ( if for settling in and feeding up alone without competition and aggression on top of G.A.S.) and dropping a new fish directly ‘in population’ is akin to Russian Roulette. But if you know your system, your pecking order for aggression, and your source for the newbie, maybe the ‘gun’ has 50 chambers and not just six and there IS only one bullet. 🙂 Best, JasPR
Poseidon so what you are basically saying is that Ich appears from thin air.?
Lets say i start a new tank and just cycle water with salt. I turn down my salinity to 1.0115-18. That is proven to kill ich. So at a specific point in time after 30 days no ICH. Then i wuarantine a new fish with the same methiod in a different tank. No ich. still. If i add rocks, i quarantine befoire hand. If i add corals, i quarantine beforehand (not wit same salinity levels but with a shot …) Where does the ich come from?
So there is a such a thing as an ich free tank. IMO
Just for reference Mark, that Poseidon is NOT me. I guess that’s obvious from the answers though.
I agree tankrod. Crypto (marine ich) is something LFSs and some online retailers will try to tell you is totally normal and is already living in your tank, just to sell you on the diseased fish they sent you in the mail. The good LFS doesn’t have crypto problems.
I agree with everything said above. I was just wondering since it is stressful at the LFS why fish dont show signs of ich but when you bring them home to a nice big tank it shows its ugly head. Do you think a lower specific gravity at the LFS (1.020) has anything to do with it? I recently started a 110 gal and my fish showed ich the first morning. I feed them well with added vitamins and everyone kicked the ich except the Dog Face Puffer. It seems to have it in the morning and by afternoon I dont see it. They are such moody fish! LOL
Poseiden and JasPR as a microbiologist I completely agree with both of you on this! Well Said!
Well, I may get flamed for this, but I’m one of those who believe that there is no such thing as an ‘ich-free’ tank. I think the parasite exists in all fish tanks. Exactly like algae, the enemy is always there. We just have to keep things in balance to help prevent outbreaks.
The key is keeping your fish healthy, happy, and stress-free to prevent problems with the immune system in the fish. Ich is just one of the first ‘diseases’ to show up, once fish have a compromised immune system. And it’s one of the few ‘diseases’ that we can see, so it’s more widely known. I would suspect that our fish sometimes contract diseases that are fought off without us even realizing it. Using this information, I would have to suspect that either tangs have a weaker immune system than most other fish OR, they are more easily stressed in a captured environment. Even tank-raised fish are going to carry some of the natural ‘wild’ markers.
TankRod – Just because something is not seen, felt, or heard, doesn’t mean that it’s not there. 🙂 These parasites are easily introduced from all of the things that you mentioned. Live rock, used substrate, and other livestock. The parasite can easily be moved without being ‘active’. The white we can see from ich is a collection of thousands of the parasites in one spot. Single free-floating parasites would never be seen. If one of the parasites is able to successfully penetrate the fish, it reproduces. More and more get into the water column, then you have an infection. Then it becomes difficult, even for fish with good immune systems, to fight them off just because of the sheer numbers. From my understanding, these parasites cannot reproduce without a host.
I’ve also not read any particular data or studies proving that lower salinities kills the parasite. It likely does, but don’t put a ‘guarantee’ on anything until you see the data. We don’t know how if or how many can slip through a lower salinity tank. Is it always a 100% kill? Maybe it’s only 99.8% and there is a chance that one might live through it? We just don’t know. It only takes one microscopic parasite.
A tank that was started with dry rock, dry sand and had all fish prophylactically treated with copper cannot have an ich present.
Matt..A study by Noga in 2000 reported that a salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80 F (25-27 C) for 14 days killed ich.
Shannon…at first glance I was like, “Huh? Would he really write that?!” Then I figured it couldn’t be you.
Ray…cleaner organisms have never been proven to specifically consume ich. Relying on them as an ich preventative or cure is a bad idea.
I’ve also heard that ick has a life span in a closed system. if no new strains of JVM at u.produced the ick will die of in about 11 months do to a type of inbreading not sure if its true but it would be nice if it were
I hate my phone “if no new strains of ick are introduced”
@ Ray – No, cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses do nothing for ich. They prey on larger parasites than ich as well as dead skin and “leftovers” stuck in the teeth of larger fish.
@ Barbara – While some LFS do use a lower SG in an effort to control ich, it generally isn’t low enough to actually kill it. Most LFS do not quarantine and actually rely on getting merchandise in and out as quickly as possible in order to pay the bills. For instance, I bought a Lubbock’s wrasse on June 2 which came through a wholesaler that passes on collection information including date and location of capture and when it left their facility which I believe was only May 27. That’s from the ocean to three different tanks (wholesaler, retailer, mine) in less than a week. Ich has a life cycle around 7-14 days. Many times, the fish is not in one place long enough to actually manifest the disease. Some people even treat infected fish by moving them back and forth between two tanks in an effort to leave the parasites behind. I’m not sure I buy into the “transfer method” as all the moving must surely stress the fish even more.
Mark, I respectfully disagree with this comment:
“A tank that was started with dry rock, dry sand and had all fish prophylactically treated with copper cannot have an ich present.”
While it is a good preventative measure it by no means complete eradication. I guarantee you there are copper resistant ich parasites out there. Nature always finds a way. I realize your subject is strictly on Ich, but with that being said there are many known and unknown fish pathogens out there that can’t be treated by copper and it is essentially impossible to treat all of them. I am not arguing that QT’ing is a good preventative measure, but I am saying it is not a silver bullet. IMO the best care you can give is by responsibly stocking your system to make it as stress free as possible with QT and doing this you will prevent majority of illnesses.
Eric Baer…I won’t deny that somewhere in the world, there might, emphasis on might be a strain of ich resistant copper. Anything is possible. And, looking at what would have to happen to have this strain become widespread, I’ll stick to my assertion.
For a strain of copper resistant ich to show up, a the “perfect storm” of events would have to happen:
a) A fish with ich would have to be treated with copper and the ich survive the treatment. This part isn’t too far fetched as I’m sure not every fish that is treated with copper is done correctly. Keep in mind too that fish that were never treated with copper wouldn’t develop an resistant strain of ich. Without a stressor, resistance isn’t built. Given that most hobbyists don’t treat fish with copper, the likely hood of a resistant strain developing just dropped significantly.
b) This fish with the resistant ich attached would then have to be placed in a tank with other fish such that the ich resistant strain gets a chance to spread.
c) The strain would then have to get moved out of the infected tank and into other tanks. The transport method would very likely be on a fish.
d) Step c would have to be repeated many times and throughout the world such that the strain makes its way into many tanks and onto many fish such that the strain becomes widespread.
The likely hood of each of these things happening gets smaller and smaller with each step. Keep in mind too we’re not talking about a disease carried by humans where the disease has a much higher likely hood of being passed around and the number of people being treated is also large.
Eric Baer…I’ll also add that I’d suspect to a resistant ich strain show up in fish farms (aquaculture) first due to the number of fish moving in/out of these systems. I’d also argue that these farms do way more in terms of disease prevention and ich than most hobbyists. These farms would also be more likely to recognize the resistant strain as they know what to look for and how a resistant strain would behave.
I absolutely agree that a stress-free environment goes a long way in keeping Ich in check. I think that stress is the root of most saltwater evils (at least health related issue).
I do disagree that Ich is present in every system. Unless there is a new hypo_resistant strain that I have not heard of, then it seems that hypo should take care of it. I am always open to learning, so if someone that believes that could please show some scientific research that backs that claim up, I would read with an open mind.
It has been scientifically proven that copper or Hyposalinity kill the marine parasite. Millions of dollars has gone into that research and its been proven time and time again.
I have heard that local fish stores maintain low levels of copper to suppress diseases, and my LFS confirmed that they actually do this. So when you get your fish home this may be why the diseases show themselves.
I am in the process of leaving my display tank empty for 10 weeks in an attempt to eradicate my ich problem. All new fish will go through the tank transfer method and then spend 2-4 weeks in quarantine before being placed in the display tank. We’ll see how it goes.
Hey Mark, I agree with most of what you are saying in your post above. I do agree that resistance for a eukaryote pathogen does require much more selective pressure than say a bacterial pathogen. Again, I’m just pointing out that there is no silver bullet. Saying Ich free is a pretty bold statement IMHO. I would also guess that say a large fish supplier by LAX could have something similar occur in one of their systems as well not just an aquaculture facility as you have stated. If I’m not mistaken, haven’t some other pathogens become resistant already to other treatments in the hobby? I recall reading that at some point in a study, but I really need to get back to work:).
Ich free systems are definitely possible and very achievable by the average hobbyist. I’ve been keeping marine systems for over 30 years now and the “research” as opposed to “opinions” clearly support this fact. Mark alluded to some of Ed Noga’s research above which is an excellent source. Another great research source is Angelo Colorni. Also, some great sources for articles on the subject are Terry Bartelme and Steven Pro. The bottom line is that ich-free systems are achievable through dilligence in proven quarantine procedures. Personally I believe a combination of hyposilinity and the transfer method is the best way.
As most of you know, ‘ich’ is a creature that is part of every ecosystem in ever ocean of the world. it is to miss the point to suggest that systems need be treated and brought away from natural parameters in a war of types to kill all and every cell that has the potential to explode in numbers and cause harm. Not wrong, mind you, just missing the big picture. Most species of fish in the wild will sport some parasite from time to time. The reason they are never really a problem are three fold– space and host concentrations as well as micro predation keep things in balance. This becomes more difficult in closed systems as space is limited, water is less than ideal and the fish themselves are subject to stress and reduced immune reaction.
In the ‘good old days’ we KEPT copper at therapeutic levels. That turned out to be effective in holding down infestation but also the expense of the fish’s health- long term. IN addition, the shift from micro species ecosystem was wrecked and the system was vulnerable to the many opportunistic species of bacteria and algae that attempted to repopulate the ‘waste land’ created by high levels of unbound copper.
And I think that all the old salts in the system know of examples where fish with stress icy were moved to established, balanced aquariums and the ich simply disappeared. Indeed, if the system is low populated, healthy and water changes are employed, many a good system will relegate the infestation back to back ground noise. this is dangerous advice and in some cases it will work and in others ( not as good a system as thought or just too new a system) it does not work and the ich steam rolls the fish population.
Finally, most folks don’t realize this but ectoparasites and potentially pathogen bacteria are naturally found in the digestive tract and vent of fish. So they can naturally ‘seed’ an aquarium from gill and gut as they are introduced.
Turns out nature is not one dimensional yet our approach to marine system care often is– For what its worth, JasPR
As most of you know, ‘ich’ is a creature that is part of every ecosystem in ever ocean of the world. it is to miss the point to suggest that systems need be treated and brought away from natural parameters in a war of types to kill all and every cell that has the potential to explode in numbers and cause harm. Not wrong, mind you, just missing the big picture. Most species of fish in the wild will sport some parasite from time to time. The reason they are never really a problem are three fold– space and host concentrations as well as micro predation keep things in balance. This becomes more difficult in closed systems as space is limited, water is less than ideal and the fish themselves are subject to stress and reduced immune reaction.
In the ‘good old days’ we KEPT copper at therapeutic levels. That turned out to be effective in holding down infestation but also the expense of the fish’s health- long term. IN addition, the shift from micro species ecosystem was wrecked and the system was vulnerable to the many opportunistic species of bacteria and algae that attempted to repopulate the ‘waste land’ created by high levels of unbound copper.
And I think that all the old salts in the system know of examples where fish with stress icy were moved to established, balanced aquariums and the ich simply disappeared. Indeed, if the system is low populated, healthy and water changes are employed, many a good system will relegate the infestation back to back ground noise. this is dangerous advice and in some cases it will work and in others ( not as good a system as thought or just too new a system) it does not work and the ich steam rolls the fish population.
Finally, most folks don’t realize this but ectoparasites and potentially pathogen bacteria are naturally found in the digestive tract and vent of fish. So they can naturally ‘seed’ an aquarium from gill and gut as they are introduced.
Turns out nature is not one dimensional yet our approach to marine system care often is– For what its worth, JasPR
Personally I would lean in the direction or cautious prevention and follow the procedure for quarantine as Mark describes. It is fine to get into a debate about resistant microorganisms but you have to remember that it will take far longer for a parasite to become resistant then a bacteria or virus, because there are more complex cellular components involved in the parasite. It’s not just a few cells that have morphed but an entire organism. In addition, if you quarantine all your livestock for 30 days (as is best practice) you will create an environment with the least likelihood for disease outbreaks, excluding poor tank husbandry induced disease.
There is little sense in arguing about ick as the point here is to encourage careful assessment of your livestock to give the best chance for health. Discouraging a good quarantine to make a point about a specific illness will not help the hobby. It’s like discouraging people from seeing a doctor because some folks saw a doctor, got a flu shot, and still got the flu.
I do believe you can minimize disease in your aquarium through quarantine, assessment of all new livestock (while in quarantine), and good tank husbandry. The only place to start is prior to introduction into your DT, so follow Mark’s advice. Nuff said 🙂
I’ve had several types of tangs over the past five years and never had ICH , I lost my first tang ever to marine velevet that came in on a margin butterfly ,by the way margin butterfly (Chelmon marginalis) are great at chompping on aptasia,cleaned mine out !
JasPR,
The key to eliminating ich from a closed system is to understand it’s life cycle. Ich cannot survive without a fish host, it cannot remain on the fish host indefinitely, and it cannot remain in the dormant phase while off of the fish host indefinitely. The longest dormant phase of ich ever verified in controlled studies was 72 days, and this was in very cold water which slows down the life cycle quite a bit. In tropical conditions/temperatures this dormant phase would never exceed 30 days. Also, ich is never on it’s host fish for more than 4-7 days before dropping off to begin multiplying again. Various proven quarantine measures such as hyposalinity and the transfer method exploit the ich at vulnerable stages of it’s life cycle by either killing it directly due to osmotic pressure and/or interrupting/discarding the disease while it is off the fish host in the dormant phase of it’s life cycle. The reason I personally use a combination of hyposalinity and the transfer method is on the outside possibility of a low salinity variant of the disease, which has been discovered in some brackish water areas. Otherwise, hyposalinity works just fine – that is, if it’s low enough as stated in Ed Noga’s reasearch (i.e. below 1.010 specific gravity). Trust me, people have been keeping ich-free systems going back to the late 80’s when Angelo Colorni first wrote about the transfer method. Ich-free systems were rare back then, but they were around, and they are more and more becoming the staus quo of the hobby by the average hobbyist these days as more and more people are using good quarantine practices.
don’t fish get ich from stress being shipped to the fish store than taken to your aquarium will cause ich if the fish is strong and eating it will go away on its own ive never treated any of my fish and have never lost one.
Tom Duck…I can vouch for Steven as a great disease/QT source as he co-authored my Quarantine guide with me! 😀
Thanks for the input Tom. It is much appreciated. You are dead accurate about the life cycle and I can ‘feel’ you know exactly what your are talking about– no question in my mind.
I am also a long term hobbyist and writer and think you and I are likely to agree on 99.9% of the information in the hobby we have taken in over the past 35 years!
We hear a lot about the ‘art and science’ of the hobby and I think we need that cold science to appreciate our observations. And greater minds than mine certainly, have vetted a lot of observational information with hard scientific research.
Much of this reminds me of the field of microbiology when study upon study was presented all throughout the 1960s,70s and 80s regarding the behavior of the bacteria cells known as nitrifers by lay folks such as myself. And when all these scientific studies were carried out over and over in controlled lab experiments we thought we knew everything about the ‘science’. But one day, a European microbiologist decided to ‘prove out’ some of the decades re-enforced lab studies in the ‘wild’ setting. To his shock and amazement, the lowly bacterial cell behaved quite differently in the wild setting. In that case, the tiny work horse cell in quest for ATP became part of a greater ecosystem and also exhibited different behavior when its genetics were applied to wild conditions ( the old ‘nature or nurture’ debate). It was very cool to think of the power of various survival techniques once a micro species was observed under natural conditions- and this tended to turn some lab studies on its ear! And so the variables boggle the mind in many one dimensional studies we have come to take as ‘complete’.
I say all this in a round about way of saying– it is a kind of innocent hubris for me to say I know a system is parasite say based on a life cycle. Initially, it is a rolling event of course ( as you know) that the cycles are multiple and population wide. Secondly, we are really wearing down the population back into unmeasurable numbers. But that isn’t even really the point– the point is, every drop of water added from the plastic bag, every invert added, every live rock added, every net used in multiple system homes has at least ‘ the potential’ to add a parasite or two.
Indeed, even a quarantined fish could harbor a low grade count of bacteria and pathogens. My point is, the exercise should not be to hunt and kill all parasites in the state as a preventative. And certainly not at the expense of the closed environment’s balance.
For 30 years I used quarantine to create a ‘zone’ in order to isolate/treat and kill all ectoparasites. But like that European scientist I described studying nitrifying bacteria species, I one day began thinking outside the box. Now I quarantine to build up the new import, assess its immune system and simply OBSERVE. I’ve nothing against osmo/hydro therapy. But I am more interested in building up the immune system, keeping pristine water conditions and feeding a balanced diet. Against this model, ecto parasites will have a very difficult time rising in numbers to the infestation level. Sorry to ramble for so many sentences! Best, JasPR
Raul:
Ich is a parasite. Fish don’t “get” it from transfer stress. Transfer stress can cause a previously symptom-free (but already infected) fish to exhibit symptoms, but it CANNOT cause the disease.
With regard to your prophylactic treatment procedures (or lack thereof…) I just hope that the Russian Roulette game you’re playing with your system never gets stuck on the loaded chamber….otherwise, you’re in for an expensive lesson.
When I was advising an exporter on high end koi about a chronic parasite problem he was having when the fish entered the wholesale chain in Europe and here in the USA, he could not understand why the fish were fine in the 3 acre mudpond but exploded with ectoparasites when they got to the wholesale facility. It turned out to be an interesting set of circumstances. The water was highly aerated from a long stream that delivered freshwater from an upper series of ponds and retention pools. AS it rolled down the countryside ( approx 500 ft of streams and waterfalls) it was coolish water of 63F. And the pond was actually lightly stocked with 100 pieces measuring 24-30 inches each.
When the fish were netted and bagged they were heavily crowded in plactic bags and then a transport tank back to the facility. In this case, the parasite ( anchor worm) is ‘stimulated’ to go into hyper reproduction when oxygen rates drop and carbon dioxide increases. This made for a massive population within 96 hours as the stressed fish lost their normal dermal/epidermal defenses for resisting both ich and anchor worm and the parasites produced massive larvae. So ironically, a fish population that had a low level presence of ectoparasites, saw it explode when two things happened ( a drop in oxygen ) and a stressed crowded population of fish). we reduced the load in the trucks, added extra oxygen and used dimilin back at the holding facility– infestation levels dropped top a few individuals per fish within the week. JasPR
jasPR- if you QT to observe new additions and any given fish exhibits signs of something (Ich, MV, etc), do you not treat it and just hope that being healthy in pristine conditions will be enough? I agree that nutrition and stress-free environments go a long way, but am not so sure that it’s enough to battle certain ailments.
Since there are so many experts here. Why does my dog face puffer have signs of ich in the morning and I dont see any in the afternoon, almost everyday since I had him a couple weeks
Hi Todd, here’s what I have come to do over the years ( I hope you find it helpful or at least see the philosophy of the approach):
1) I keep two 90 gallon oceanic aquariums running 365 days a year. This is for rotation and ‘batch acclimation/quarantine’ – as you know, each new purchase needs to be isolated for a planned period and adding a new purchase to an existing quarantine starts the period all over again for rthe already quarantined fish.
These tanks are bear bottomed and have a series of PVC elbows and 3 inch piping. they have ehiem’s running the system and they are active biologically. The media is removed after each 6 week interval and bags of new active media from the sump of a third active tank are used to replace the used media for the next 6 week Q period.
These tanks are run at 76F and are lighted with t-5 strips ( not too bright- the idea is calming illumination and sense of safety).
2) fish that come in are dipped ( temp,ph matched) and then observed for a period of 4-6 weeks before they enter one of my three systems ( 180 gal, 120 gal, 72 bow and future 450 gallon show tank)
3) I also keep some sponge/polyps, algae stone and live copepods that I add with the fish on each 6 week quarantine period.
4) I also scrap larger fish for a microscope slime coat biopsy, This is done by scanning a slide first under 250X and then upward if there is movement in the slide. I have slides on a powerpoint presentation I do showing parasites for Identification purposes.
5) the idea is to rest the fish, give it food and good water of a stable pH and temperature. Not too warm ( a mistake done often as in freshwater tropicals this is believed to peak the immune system and so it carries over to our hobby, too warm is bad as the oxygen levels at saturation are lower and bacteria grows more rapidly at high temperatures)
6) after a few days ( 2-5) you will know how strong the fish is, how robustly it feeds ( or not) and you should also be able to tell if it is an individually strong fish or a weak fish. Watch for rapid breathing ( count the beats of the gill plate) and for flashing ( rubbing against surfaces or ‘chewing and dashing’). if the scope shows no parasites on the slime, normal breathing is observed and fish feeds robustly– I do nothing in way of additives. IF the fish shows the classic white spots I will check salinity ( usually kept at 1018 in Qtank). I will give it 24 hours IF the fish is strong or begin treatment ( chelated copper) if I suspect that time is critical. This is a difficult judgement call as it is a moment in time when one must treat or one must not over react and push a fish over the edge. Depending on species ( hate treating certain species with copper) and condition I can tell you I usually treat at this point 70-80% of the time. You can usually tell over night of the fish is loosing the battle of resistance.
You will notice that fish build an immunity to ‘indigenous subspecies’ they have coped with before. But mixed ocean and subspecies of parasites can be very powerful around naive species of fish so you need to take this into consideration.
Once my batch of new purchases has done their time in QT, they are strong, well fed and eating the same foods as the general population. At that point they are introduced ( usually in a breeder trap – net type) for a while and usually in late evening. The early morning is the toughest time for the new entries as the residents detect and challenge the new arrives upon discovery. If the fish is driven to a surface corner it is removed back to the trap. After a few hours the fish is released into population again. as you may have discovered as I did, some entries are allowed in with only a wriggle of territorialism and others are tormented.
But at this point, I consider the newbies parasite free or at least parasite dormant. The only tricky ones are the hippo tangs that seem to hold on to a residual population longer? JasPR
jasPR- Wow…so you’ve got a microscope going? I’ve never heard of that being done, but it’s interesting. I’ve heard some people say that they are against QT and treatment, even when fish show signs of disease. I guess I took your earlier post to mean you only observe, not treat as necessary. Sounds like you do whatever is needed, as needed, which is what I try to do (minus the microscopic testing). I’ve learned the hard/expensive way that QT for new additions is a must (at least I think so).
JasPR,
You need to quaratine everything – both fish and non-fish. Fish as stated previously. Non-fish in a separate tank that has no fish in it whatsoever and mirrors the parameters of the main display. Non-fish lifeforms (corals, inverts, live rock) do not handle hyposalinity at all and thus require a fallow (or fishless) period at normal salinity levels for at least 30 days to kill any ich that may come in on them by depriving the ich of any fish host. Again, there is a limited life cycle to ich (no matter how many strains or variants are present), and part of that life cycle absolutely requires a fish. You merely deny them that during the fallow period. Also, properly quarantined fish do not “harbor” ich that somehow manifests itself later on. Much of the problem with hobbyist regarding ich involves either inadequate quarantine procedures and/or a reintroduction of the disease after a cure has been achieved. It’s not due to a failure of fallow periods, “proper” hyposaline conditions, transfer method, etc.. Therefore, many hobbyist choose to surrender and rationalize to the concept of ever-present ich in a system. However, when you diligently quarantine “everything” going into the main display you “can” achieve an ich-free system. I encourage you to simply read and apply the principles of the sources/authors previously mentioned. It does work – actually and not theoretically. Also, you’ve got to acknowledge that a closed sytem is inherently unnatural by its very definition. Therefore, what may coexist in nature may be lethal in a closed system. Therefore, the premise of trying to replicate the natural state of absolutely everything in a closed system is a flawed aspiration/goal. This principle also applies to compatibility issues of fish and non-fish lifeforms in a closed system as well as that of disease issues. There’s idealism and then there’s realism. Closed sytems need to have realistic adjustments from that of nature.
all true. Especially the comments about aquariums not be mini duplications of the oceans. Instead we harness general biological processes — bulging some and discouraging others.
Still, a closed system is not a sterile place. We are simply encouraging some biological processes and micro species and creating an environment to discourage others.
I’ll leave you with this observational riddle–
All systems are deemed either disease and parasite free based on the health and normal activities of the fish, But not all health fish are devoid of opportunistic pathogens or ectoparasites. Its all about balance. Its all about keeping fish strong and protozoa in proportion to the rest of the microbial ecosystem.
On another note, I have yet a new species of caulerpa algae this year. No new rock or sand added to that particular system in 4 years– yet the bubble gave way to the grape and the grape to the feather, “white back ground” species gaining an advantage based on luxury nutrient release of another passing species. Nature is amazing. Pest anemone rise and fall– disappear and reappear— all pretty amazing for a ‘box of saltwater’ long cut off from the sea. :0 I DO love this hobby!
Best, JasPR
I so wish I knew someone in Houston that could come finish the installation and fix the problems the mom and pop fish store has started and not finished on my new tank.
Barbara…I know someone in Houston. He isn’t cheap, but he does great work.
Barbara…if the stuff that looks like ich is gone by the afternoon, yet reappears in the am, I doubt it is ich. I’d suspect something in your water column or rocks that gets on the fish while he sleeps and then the fish is more active during the day, it falls off.
I’ve seen that ‘symptom’ often on spiny box puffer fish and related species — looks like ich and then gone the next day. I also don’t think it is an ectoparasite– might be a normal physiological reaction? If you notice, these non parasite has a uniform spotted pattern to it, all over the body, often including the eye! I’ve hear lots of theories but never one that made a lot of sense. And the key is, it is always only the one fish and never other tank mates.
JasPR, that is true, I have a Niger Trigger and you would be able to spot ich easily on his body and it does not have any.
Hey Todd, yes its a handy instrument and valuable tool. I will often scrap a new arrival to see if anything is building in the slime coat. The best place to ‘scrap’ for a sample is behind the gill as ectoparasites congregate on the gills ( blood supply and soft tissue) and some are blown off onto the body. Most protozoa will be head for the gills.
These’s a whole ‘nother’ world under that scope optical! Best, JasPR
JasPR,
I don’t disagree with the concept of a certain level of natural immunity that healthy fish may have against ich, which is what you are talking about. However, the key word in the term “natural immunity” is the word natural, and closed systems are inherently unnatural and stressful compared to nature. With an ich-free system through diligent and proper quarantine procedures the very issue of natural immunity within a closed system becomes irrelevent, as there is nothing that the fish has to try and fight off. You can actually eliminate ich and not just “discourage” it or try to maintain a “balance” with it. I would prefer not to have to try and strike a balance with something that can, and eventually will, wipe out an entire closed system tank of fish.
I recently purchased a powder blue on a silly whim since it was on sale at lfs, not realizing from lack of research, that it was prone to ich so bad. I have had my tank for about two years now and never seen any sign of ich. About two days after my purchase, which I of course did not quarantine 🙁 I saw ich and two days later the fish disappeared, I guess dead and eaten. A sad and expensive lesson learned 🙁